Damn it, Zorro!

[glenatron]

So today wasn't so good- rode out solo after work, which we haven't done for quite some time ( riding out solo, I mean, the after work bit is kind of secondary ) which went about as expected- reasonably well and then Zorro got upset when I made the decision that we weren't going to go the way he believed was the shortest route home and I had to sit through another tantrum. Now there is a thing about Zorro's tantrums and it's that they keep on happening and I handle them and we get along but the pattern isn't changing, which means that as the one setting up this situation, I am not changing it.

The good news is that Zorro is a reasonably well trained horse- his work in the school shows that he understands what is being asked for and he is increasingly forward-going and soft in that work. I don't feel at all as though I am confusing him with what I ask.

The problem is that when we go out, particularly when we go out alone, but also in company which is one reason we're going to be practicing going out alone for a while, he feels that he needs to take over the moment things get anxious. In the past I would perhaps have thought this was a case of not having shown him that I can be trusted or be consistent or stay calm when he is concerned, but we've been working together for a long time now and I have been consistent and calm at least to a good enough degree that I feel like I should have seen some change.

The way it seems to me now is that he doesn't know how to look to anyone else when he gets concerned. The way he sees it, he's got to sort that out himself and if he can get shot of me in the process then all to the good.

So how do I fix it? The best idea I have so far is to practice, specifically by going out to the wide, comfortable bridleway at the bottom of the lane which is long and level and sandy, and just spending a long time standing there. And every time Zorro decides he's going to go home, or have a fit, or run after passing horses I'll stop him, put him back and we'll continue waiting. Depending on the results we may go and wait in some different places or even do some gentle ambling along the track, a bit like we might in the school. The important point here is that I need him to start to think that maybe he doesn't need to make all the decisions all the time.

It will be a while before I can work on this as somewhere during a particularly hectic moment on a steep hillside I seem to have strained an adductor muscle and I think it may come between me and riding for a while.
sigh
It's just getting tiresome is all. I know he's a pretty difficult horse, but sometimes I wonder whether I'm even remotely up to the job.

Comments

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

Hmm. What is it about horses named Zorro?

(The schoolie I'm thinking of is a 14.1 QH, solid black, capable of spinning on a dime and dumping a rider. Every one of your Zorro stories could apply to this Zorro as well).

It sounds similar to what I'm dealing with in my horse, except that it's not anxiety as much as she just plain wants to take over at a certain point.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Someone I know says smart things about the path of training not always running smooth...whoever could that be?

Tucker is a know-it-all. It's actually quite cool--he's wicked smart, so when he decides that he knows best in a given moment or situation, he often has a point--but it sure got easier to appreciate all that free-thinking once I started learning how to cope with it and finding clear and concrete ways in which it improved my life.

Hope your leg heals up quick and well.

[skye-ds.livejournal.com]

Horses don't seem to understand *don't* do something. They just seem to understand *do* something.

So this:

...we may go and wait in some different places or even do some gentle ambling along the track, a bit like we might in the school.

Might work better than this:

And every time Zorro decides he's going to go home, or have a fit, or run after passing horses I'll stop him, put him back and we'll continue waiting.

Right now I have an older retired professional cow horse in for a "tune up." He expresses his intent to make his own decisions by throwing his head up in the air, hollowing out his back, and jigging around. In just the last week, we've made great strides towards collection, which puts leadership back in our soft, gentle but firm and capable hands.

What I've done:
1. Halter and lead rope. Flying lessons. Take off (walk), landing (whoa), north (forward), south (backward), east (right), west (left). Flying lessons begin with me standing at his shoulder / between his shoulder & nose. Advanced flying lessons: let lead rope hang straight to ground. Take it loosely in one hand. Walk to the left or the right. Exert as little pressure on the rope as it takes to get lateral flexion. By the time I stop at the shoulder, I want both ears and eyes on me. If the head comes down as well as around, even better (although there's another cue for that, I call it "Calm Down") "Calm Down" builds on lateral flexion. Once the lateral flexion is there, don't provide release until the head not only comes around, but puts pressure downward. Release and allow downward movement. A horse with his head down is not spooking, ergo "Calm Down." Of course all this has to be done on both sides.

2. Lunge at Liberty:
a. "Catching Horse Up"
b. "Side reins"

3. Under saddle. When we Whoa, we whoa one side and then the other, alternating one rein stops. Then we flex the nose all the way to the right, and then all the way to the left - touching toe, pants, stirrup, whatever. Again, once lateral flexion is achieved, vertical flexion follows naturally. Also practice "Calm Down" cue above, where the release isn't given after just lateral flexion, but is given when the horse asks to put his head down.

Clear as mud? Is easier to explain face to face :-(

[skye-ds.livejournal.com]

Catching a horse up - take a cotton lead rope, an appropriate length bungee cord, or a side rein, your choice. Flex the horse's head to one side, tie it to the saddle or a surcingle. Tie it loosely enough that when the horse flexes, he provides himself relief. You can do this and put the horse back in his stall for 5 or 10 minutes, each side, or let him loose in a pen or arena 5 - 10 minutes each side while you do something else. Me personally, I wouldn't leave a "caught up" horse alone at all, but if you do, please do it in a stall where he can't get himself in trouble.

Side reins - You may use your choice of actual side reins, cotton lead ropes or bungee cords, along with either a saddle or a surcingle. I use bungee cords, and either a saddle or a surcingle. We use the side reins only when lunging at liberty, NOT when riding. Far as I'm concerned, it's the rider's job to help the horse stall calm, cool and collected, and to keep the horse's head set where it belongs.

Also try: rather than asking for a whoa, ask for a back up/reverse straight out of a walk, trot or canter. This will improve the quality of the basic "whoa" tremendously, and it counts as giving the horse something to do to keep him from doing what you don't want him to do.

Other things to give a trail horse to do: circles, serpentines and figure 8s - out in the open, as well as around trees. Go back to basics. Please move what part of body I ask (insert body part here - nose, feet, shoulder, hip). Please move what I tell you, when I tell you. Please move what I tell you, when I tell you, where I tell you. Please move what I tell you, when I tell you, where I tell you, every time I tell you to move it. (Consistency). Go all the way back to whatever baby step you know he will give you when you ask for it. You want to set him up to say "yes" instead of "no."

It's all part of making the appropriate/right/desired thing to do pleasant, and the inappropriate/wrong/undesired thing to do unpleasant. Resistance-free / Path of least resistance. Eventually, you get "Oh, is THAT what you wanted? Well why didn't you say so in the first place?" and that is your communication breakthrough :) *HUGS*

[dancing-crow.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think you are up to it. I offer sympathy and no advice - it sounds like you have most of a grip on what you want to have happen. I've found a really clear vision helps, with specifics.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

It's a difficult problem because the point I need him to understand is that this is not your decision to make, with a side order of you can count on me to make a good decision for both of us.

The important thing in the way I'm thinking of approaching it is not that standing isn't doing something so much as that standing is easy and comfortable and minimal effort and one thing I've learned from cowhorses is that waiting and being patient is a job in itself.

The thing is that he will do whatever I ask him to and do it well if his mind is with me, but the moment we are out of his geographical comfort zone his attention is zipping from thing to thing and he isn't ready to settle to the thing I'm asking him for.

In the school I would be thinking about rapid changes of direction, serpentines, small circles and so on, but in a school I would expect to be working with a horse that could stand still when asked. As so often happens the problem is less that there is no potential solution and more that there are so many potential solutions that it's hard to choose which will work best.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Small pony is smart and sweet natured and will make decisions that are generally pretty good, I would love to be able to get to a place like that with Zorro, but he's a very self-contained person and the problem with his decision-making as I've experienced it is that the only person that really figures in those decisions is Zorro...

I guess it indicates that I'm still mostly working with the outside of this horse rather than the inside and the only way I can change that is to keep working at it.

I'm hobbling around alright today, so I'm hopeful it will only be a few days until I'm reasonably back to normal...

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

I guess the original Zorro is a notorious rebel, so it probably should be to be expected.

The trouble with anxiety is that if you don't work through it you end up teaching the horse to be anxious, which - lightbulb goes on - I probably did in the past. And now I'll have to work back out the other side...

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I probably am up to it, but not for a few days. A clear vision, being ready for whatever comes up and the ability to walk comfortably are going to be important here I think...

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

We're probably close to your "calm down" cue anyway- we have unquestioning flexion when I ask for it, which is one reason I can get him disengaged and stopped reasonably fast when he does decide he's going to flip out a bit, so it wouldn't be too hard to build up to that.

[skye-ds.livejournal.com]

If he is near to responding to Calm Down already, then by all means build on that. Keep doing it, over and over, as many times as it takes, until he actually picks up the phone and listens to what you're trying to say. I know it's frustrating, when it takes hundred or even thousands of repetitions - *hugs* good luck!

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

If I understand correctly what you mean by the inside of the horse--training the mind?--I do think that can take time, especially with this sort of thing. There's the step at which he understands to listen up--it sounds like you have that pretty well in the ring, yes?--and then there's the step at which that that understanding becomes instinct, which is what it sounds like you don't have yet--that he doesn't automatically look to you for help--but that's hard for a flight animal; you have to reprogram all that evolution to act first and ask questions later (as well as all that experience of having his own way and/or having to have his own way, with an older horse).

I think that recognizing the pattern is a really good thing to be able to do and recognizing your part in it is also a really good thing, but at the same time, this sort of thing takes a while and a lot of repetition and layering of good experience on good experience to really build into the horse. So y'know, don't beat yourself up too much if the problem can't be solved instantly. Doesn't necessarily mean you're not doing the right thing. (May! But then again, may not, etc.)

(I do think, reading down the thread--I don't know exactly what it is that he's doing? But I do think that slamming on the brakes with a horse that's trying to act up is not always the best approach. I've had much better luck with taking whatever the horse offers as if I'd asked for that very thing and then shaping it in a more positive direction. But mileage may vary, of course, and some behaviors are more easily handled that way than others, and sometimes when you're hacking out you just aren't in a safe area to do that sort of thing.)

[baddynono.livejournal.com]

Can you do what you do with naughty toddlers having tantrums where you let them and walk off (but actually totally still in sight) until they realise you've left them and are then grateful that you're back to tell them what to do?

Or would that just mean you'd let a rampaging horse loose on the common?

I'm just thinking that it can't be pleasant for him to feel like he has to flip out and maybe he has the reassurance that when he does you'll be there to fix it. But then I know nothing about horses. Also if you like I could try and ride him and then he would realise how much more trustworthy you are in decision making? :o)

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

If we were getting him stomping off then I would just work on steering and go with the forward- he's a horse that is inclined to do less rather than more when it comes to moving off, so I wouldn't want to take that out unnecessarily. Unfortunately he's more about the upwards than the forwards and I would prefer to have less bucking for preference. It doesn't shake me too badly these days, as long as I'm ready for it, but as the state of my leg indicates it's not entirely safe and just a bit unnecessary. Also if he does start to run off it will tend to be run--buck--Buck--BUCK!!! so once we start getting to that point I feel like I have to exert a little more control.

I think it's more the having his own way that is the problem with Zorro now. He does spook and that's not really a problem, it's the "we're going home now" or the "well, I want to go home, and if you don't you could maybe piss off and leave me to make my own way home" thing that makes the difference.

The big bridleway on the common kind of goes right around it in a circuit of about three miles, maybe slightly under. I'm wondering if we just need to go out and keep riding around that until he stops dicking about...

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

You have hit the nail on the head with the problem of the loose rampaging horse there. I think he'd be very happy to either go straight home, up the road, or to go and meet up with any other riders out on the common and start a fight with them. Either of which could be a problem...

[penella22.livejournal.com]

I'm reassured to see this post as it offers up solid proof that you're human and fallible and willing to admit to it too. All things I admire in other human beings.

To me this sounds like a relationship problem. It's not so much about rank as it is about trust, or he wouldn't listen to you when he wasn't anxious either. Some horses do this just to make it clear who's really in charge...but others do it because they simply can't see their way through to being able to depend on a human and have that human come through for them.

I'd prove to him that you can. Lunky cobs can be hard to spook, or at least Sage is, so I know this can be a challenge. But I propose that indirect thinking might work best here; find some contrived challenges you can practice facing with him on the ground, so he can learn to trust you. And separate from that take him out alone more routinely but in smaller doses. I like the exercise of leading them far enough away they start to get upset and turning them back towards the barn before they can really freak out and then ambling away from the barn again and just zig zagging back and forth until his comfort zone expands. That makes sense to me you know? It keeps him from having that all out panic moment.

I have one more thought to offer, at the risk of giving too much advice and not enough "I feel your pain";

Observe Zorro a little more closely on the ground or in the saddle...is he a horse who seems fine right up to the instant he's unhappy? Or does he give small warnings like tightening his mouth or his eyes changing a bit? I really think part of working with our horses effectively is understanding how they express themselves. Sage is so outgoing and extroverted I don't have to put much energy into this with him. It is at all times, pretty clear what he thinks of me. Thea on the other hand, I really have to be paying attention to or her explosions take me by surprise. It amazes me what a wide range of behavior I need to respond to their different temperaments. But I think if Zorro doesn't "tell you" ahead of time, that should really impact how you have this conversation with him about trusting your decisions.

But mostly, I'm just glad to see you being human. Hope that leg heals up soon, and that inspiration as to how exactly you want to deal with this hits soon.

[z111.livejournal.com]

Do you think Zorro knows you're with him when you're on him?

I think Zahra doesn't know. It's like she forgets I'm up there when she's really anxious. Whereas, if I'm on the ground next to her, she looks to me for leadership, I can't figure out how to get that from her under saddle.

Some horses are certainly more difficult than others.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Only too fallible but much like the other awesome horsey people I've met through LJ, working as hard as I possibly can to circumvent it :)

The problem is that I need him to find a way to let down that isn't the same as rewarding him for being afraid. If you think of it in simple pressure-and-release terms, then being afraid is a pressure and if you yield too much to that then you're going to teach your horse that being afraid is what you are looking for. So although he does indicate to me that he is getting more anxious- I can feel his back tightening ( obviously, I'm working pretty hard at not looking at him while I'm riding because I'm trying to learn to operate through feel and seeing may distract from that ) and his heart rate picking up - I need to be finding a way to overcome that. Ideally I would like to find a solution that doesn't mean pushing him so far that he tries to leave, starts bucking or whatever else but also one that doesn't just mean we can run off home either. I think maybe the solution will be to ignore the problem as far as possible and just to keep practicing until it isn't an issue. This will probably entail some long and initially rather hectic rides...

There isn't really a question about leadership on the ground- Zorro won't push his luck too far in that circumstance now, so this really is a saddle thing. It's useful to know I can just hop off and be in control if I need to, but doing that kind of counts as an objective achieved for Zorro too and I worry that it might encourage exactly the behaviours I would prefer to discourage. I don't really know on that front, though, as I've heard acounts on both sides, but I'm reluctant to risk it too far.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Once he gets concerned, Zorro's attention tends to be all over the place and typically not particularly on me. I guess changing stuff might be useful there, but out on the trails that isn't always easy...

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Ideally I would like to find a solution that doesn't mean pushing him so far that he tries to leave, starts bucking or whatever else but also one that doesn't just mean we can run off home either.

Have you tried giving him a job to do when you feel him start to get anxious? (Or better yet, slightly before? Even just at intervals for a while?)

Takes some timing and feel, but I don't think I've ever ridden a horse that some variation of that didn't work for. The idea is that you get in and break up the resistance and gives him something to react to in a positive way--a way you can reward and that over time he can learn to seek for himself--before he reaches the point of needing to react to the world in general in a way you'd prefer he didn't.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

This is exactly what I need to be doing, the problem being that I need to find a job that one can do in the potentially limited space of a trail and ideally doesn't involve pointing ourselves back home, which is a recipe for trouble.

Starting out really working and experimenting with it on a wide open trail is probably a useful beginning. I guess a bit of shoulder-in or similar might be something to build on.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Shoulder-in is a good one, especially if part of his trick involves popping or dropping a shoulder. I also have a lot of luck with bending one way for a few steps, straightening for a step, then bending the other way for a few steps, etc., and with a leg-yield zig zag from one side of the trail to the other.

If the space was really narrow, I might try a few steps of moving turn on the forehand and then a few steps back the other way and evolve that into the on-trail equivalent of some nose- or tail-to-the-wall leg yield.

Do you typically work in the school and then hack afterwards, or do you generally go right out?

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

We generally go right out and maybe spend a little time in the school when we get back if I feel like he needs it.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Might try working a bit beforehand and then going out, if you have enough light in the evenings at this point. I find it sometimes helps to make sure all the buttons are working properly and horse is in a working frame of mind before moving into the less comfortable/controlled situation. Not something one should have to do forever, but it can make a difference in the working-through-whatever stage.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

I used to do this in the past and you're probably right, it would be useful to go back to it. I mostly stopped because I didn't want Small to have to keep waiting for us but of course that's not such an issue when we're riding out alone...

[penella22.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, horses have comfort zones, and there's one line they cross from totally comfy to hmm, this is a little new for me...and then a second line they cross where the situation becomes intolerable for them, overwhelming, more than they can bear.

I absolutely agree with you that if you back off the pressure everytime he acts scared, you'd only reinforce his fears. Bad idea. But what I was going for was crossing that first line and stopping before you hit the second. So ride him out a ways, get off and walk for a little while, get back on, get off again, because those shorter exposures will help build his confidence but hopefully introduce things to him in such a way that he's not getting overwhelmed to where he explodes.

I agree with buymeaclue that work can help give him boundaries and distract him, and reinforce the idea that you're the leader. But at a certain level of overwhelmedness I think the ceases to work. And just ignoring it and practicing through those first hectic rides will probably get the job done, but at your physical expense. Personally I'd rather drift in sideways towards his anxious zone than approach it head on.

Another exercise I've heard of is the leap frog exercise. I'm sure you've probably heard of it too. But you go out with another horse and practice lagging far behind for awhile, and then catching up, then leading way in front for awhile...wash rinse repeat. It's another way of being more independent in steps rather than one fell swoop.

When Sage gets a little antsy being away from Thea I tend to use serpentines, or do small figure 8's. But we're mainly in fields or on a paved road so there's room for that...

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

I'll wager your paved road doesn't get a whole lot of traffic either...

[allezbleu.livejournal.com]

this!

[allezbleu.livejournal.com]

i really feel for you. Hero is like this, but he is incredibly spooky too!

I did what has already been suggested, Start with his confort zone and push it a little more each day - kind of like we humans do when we lose our confidence and have to go back to basics for a while!

I used to do 5-10 mins in the school, just to make sure he is listening. To distract him when hes anxious, and if i think hes going to spook at something, shoulder-in with his head bent away from the scary thing works a treat. Take him out a little further each day. Keep reminding him im there by just scratching his wither when he begins to get anxious. big reward when we go further than yesterday, and it grew from there.


That said ill have to start this *all over again* since hes been out of work for 3 months.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. One problem we have had in the past is that if we stop and turn around somewhere that becomes the place we stop and turn round and next time we'll only go further after a big argument there where lunky decides to pre-empt my decision and take us home from that place. Which means we have to get at least to somewhere that we can make a circle because I really don't want to be getting onto fights on the lane, small and quiet as it is, because it's embarrassing when there are cars waiting for you to finish spinning a furious cob around. But then stretching the comfort zone will certainly reward bravery and avoid conflict in a meaningful fashion.

[(Anonymous)]

Ben, Over the last few days I've thought and thought about this post, and I don't really know what to say.
There are so many things to try, but no-one could ever say, 'this will definitely work'. In desperation what I might try is box him out into the unknown and ride him for a few hours where he has no idea where he is going. Do this over and over till he just gets used to going places withour worrying about it. I would also combine this with really getting in there and making sure he was really responsive to all my cues, with no delays. Basically trying to take up all the space so that he gets out of the habit of using and believing in his own agenda - sounds a bit fascist I know, but it's just a way of saying, 'no grey areas'.

[tom909.livejournal.com]

That's me above! I'll get the hang of this one day, or not!

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this, it coheres closely with the conclusion I had come to myself. It hadn't occurred to me to box him somewhere rather than just riding him out there, but that might make a difference too.