Post that weighs as much as I do

[glenatron]

I arrived at work to find a sizeable parcel had got there before me...

It doesn't obviously not fit but I don't know for sure that it does either. Thinking I may borrow a Port Lewis Pad from somewhere to see whether it is putting heavy pressure anywhere, but it looks like it may be alright. Certainly the big guy seems to move comfortably enough in it having some video taken yesterday in our regular saddle and today in this one I could see no great difference.

It's old and very solid but has clearly been kept in someone's garage for a while and some of the thonging will need replacement I think. I'm slightly baffled by the lack of D-Rings - I've got the breastplate clipped onto the cinch rings here and it looks a bit low to me, but maybe that's normal- anyone who has used this shape of saddle and can advise would be a help. If we do decide it is a good fit, I may try and find a friendly saddler who can add some d-rings and maybe a couple of other bits of frippery that I would find convenient- a rope-strap for my lariat, extra loop on the back I could buckle my cinches onto and so on.

Also I'll need a proper thick neoprene saddle blanket and stirrups about twice as wide...

Comments

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I don't know from western saddles, but he looks dapper in it, for sure.

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

Snug up the breast collar a notch. Some saddles don't have the D-rings so you have to run the breast collar through there. But it does need to be up a notch on each side.

Move it back slightly. It looks a little forward to me.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

I think it probably is a bit forward, but then is it going to be too far back if it goes any further back, and will it tend to slip forward given that the cinch is approximately in the narrow part now?

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

You've got at least an inch, probably more like two inches realistically, and you don't need to move it back too far. An inch will be plenty--you just need to get it off of those shoulders. There are plenty of short-backed horses--my girl is one!--where the length of the saddle puts it pretty close to the flank. I'd put it back an inch and see what happens. Get it off of his shoulder, anyway.

Cinch will stay. You just need to make sure it's snug.

[harnessphoto.livejournal.com]

I'm not much for Western tack, but he does make that thing look sexy ;)

[harnessphoto.livejournal.com]

Also, I have to say I disagree with the above comment. The saddle looks like it's right where it should be. Western saddles tend to slide back and settle more than English ones once you mount. Also, I can't tell if the breast collar fits properly or not from a photo, but be careful if you take the above advice. You want to be able to comfortably fit your hand between it and the horse. It's there as a security belt in case the saddle tries to slide back. Otherwise it shouldn't be putting pressure on the horse. It's not like a girth to hold the saddle firmly in place.

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

Um, not really. The breast collar is too low, as well. It doesn't fit like a breastplate for an English saddle. That breast collar has at least two handfuls right now. It is too loose to be effective. Right now it will interfere with the shoulder action and if the saddle chooses to slide back, it will interfere even more. It needs to be about an inch and a half higher, and tightening it up will take care of that.

I ride with a high-level trainer and judge here in the States, and I grew up riding Western in cowboy country, so I know whereof I speak. Western saddles shouldn't be sliding back and settling--if they are, either the pad is too slick or it's not cinched tight enough. If the saddle is sliding back and settling in your experience, then you put it too far forward to begin with. The Western saddle is stiffer than an English saddle and is less inclined to interfere with the shoulders, but if the saddle is too far forward, it will be less stable.

[harnessphoto.livejournal.com]

I didn't say it fit properly... did I? I just cautioned against over tightening it. You don't have to ride with a high and mighty trainer to understand where shoulder and chest rubs come from. ALL saddles settle when you mount up. It's called physics. It's not a visible amount, but it happens.

I was kind enough to leave your comment alone. You could take about three steps back, grow some courtesy, and do the same.

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

Also, I have to say I disagree with the above comment. The saddle looks like it's right where it should be.

I don't consider this comment necessarily to be kind enough to leave your comment alone, especially if you've not the courage to say so in direct response to the comment. If you're going to disagree, have the courage of your convictions.

Nor would I have had a problem with it if you had made that comment directly. The reality is that people with a primarily English background often tend to place Western saddles too far forward on the shoulders. It's an honest mistake, and not worth a flamewar, or prickly hurt feelings when someone gets corrected. It's often just a small placement of an inch or so--but that can make a world of difference. Additionally, as someone who has worked with both sets of tack, the reality is that the adjustments of things like breast collars can be different. That breast collar needs to be higher on the chest, and a notch shorter on each side will allow this to happen, especially when rigging from the cinch rings.

I do not consider this or the other comment to be a violation of common courtesy. If you do, then perhaps you need to consider your own motives in making the comments you did. Saddle placement is one of those things where people can and do disagree. I offered my background to show to someone I do not know that I do have some experience whereof I speak.

[harnessphoto.livejournal.com]

I prefaced my comment with the fact that I am not a Western expert. My advice to ANYONE fitting tack would be to get someone knowledgeable to help them in person. As for background... I work at a horse adoption agency as the trainer. We do both English and Western riding here and while my specialty and preference is English, I have seen enough damage done by poorly fitted breast collar to advise against OVER tightening.

I wasn't trying to discredit your advice. I was cautioning against taking it without better understanding proper fit.

Don't try to pin some false motive on me just because we have varying standpoints on this.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

It certainly suits him well enough. Even if this doesn't turn out to be a good fit I think we'll end up using a western saddle a lot in future anyways.

[makoiyi.livejournal.com]

To be honest, back cinch and breast plate are not necessary unless you are doing western disciplines like reingin penning or barrell racing. They are there to stop the saddle moving in extreme circumstances, not for generneral riding. The back cinch forex is there if you rope calf to stop the saddle rising. If you are doing lots of trails up steep hills and down dales again, a breast plate and bck cinch could help, but not if the saddle absolutely fits.

Yhe best test for a western saddle is to run your hand from the front to the back, underneath the skirts; it should feel right and not pinch. It shouldnot rise up or rock behind. It should have good cleanrance over the wither and not pinch there. You should be able to see all the way through it back to front.
That 'looks' pretty good from the side, but that can change with your weight on it.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Weight and movement are the big things that change the fit, which is one reason I'd like to try using a Port Lewis pad because that shows up everything from those.

I do wonder if I could rig up a home-made one with a sturdy plastic bag and some playdough...

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

There are rigging styles which do require a back cinch, but from what I see of this, it doesn't look like it's one of those. I'd lose the back cinch myself.

Back cinches are really mandatory only for things like roping or cow work. Barrel racing--not so big a deal, same for reining (though I use a breast collar on my reiner).

[serennig]

Hard to see from this angle, but make sure it isn't too narrow up by the withers there. It's got an ever-so-slight tilt front-above-back that isn't just the seat, but could just be the photo angle, or even the way the saddle looks. Generally, it does look like a decent enough fit when it's without any blanket. Does it clear the withers alright?

What is it, btw? Brand/model/tree? Is that rear cinch in the skirt or the tree? The lack of D's and the height of the cantle makes me think it's not likely to be a roper, but I guess it might still be at least an all-rounder if the cinch rings are in the tree. I don't know if you're thinking of roping though, but the mention of the reata made me wonder. This saddle looks more like a pleasure or equitation type, despite the post horn.

I like the way the fenders are hanging, certainly seems like it isn't prone to the terrible leg-forward style we see a lot of around here.

Generally, I like the look of it. :) Unless you need it, I'd forego the breast collar... some BNTs like Al Dunning swear by them on all horses but they need not be snug. We never use one except for show, or when doing something with high speeds, tight turns, fast stops.

I've been trying a lovely well-broke-in Western Rawhide roper this week. It's so comfy, but the fenders a little long and would need to be trimmed, and the price a little high for what it is. It's so darn cute on the horses we've put it on, gets me a little too much thigh contact for the little River, but it's wide enough for the Big Buckskin Tank Mare who could probably use the extra contact anyways, but, well, we'll see.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

I doubt I'll do a lot of roping tbh, but I've got used to having a reata as a general tool/seatbelt/accellerator.

The advantage of having the breastcollar is that pony is very round- he has a bump rather than withers, so saddles to tend to move a little bit on him and if that helps it stay stable it is probably for the best. Does mean that we have a fair amount of wither clearance.

I'll check the other details you asked about when I'm at the yard later. The maker is something like Diamond D, it wasn't anything I had heard of...

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

I have no idea why I said reata rather than lariat there either. I guess tired and sleepy equals vaguely incoherent as usual...

[serennig]

Er, aren't they the same thing? They are around here, though reata usually refers to the substance of the rope -- the type of rope, to distinguish it from baling twine -- while lariat implies there's a loop in it. But I thought that's just local linguistic flavouring.

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

I have a vague recollection of Diamond D. If so, it's an older brand.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

The back cinch is indeed on the tree. I think it's probably an all-round kind of design- it's not as nice as the George Michel ranch saddle I rode on when I was with Martin but it feels pretty good nonetheless.

It's a flex-tree, although judging by the weight it can't flex terribly much, it's just got to be too solid for that.

I emailed the seller about the breastcollar and she said, essentially, "oh, I never used that because there aren't any D-rings" - I don't think it's a big deal for the time being. I would want to have the collar on if I was starting colts with it just because I would like to know the saddle is stable without having to cinch it up too tightly at first. I think this would be a kick-ass colt starting saddle actually...

[serennig]

My understanding is that most flex-trees don't flex in any appreciable way. They aren't really meant to move a lot, just give a little over time, responding to pressures to essentially conform to the horse. It was kind of meant to approximate what happens with english saddles and flocking, only, well, I'm skeptical of the logic -- and I'm always skeptical of anything that sounds gimmicky. I'm in love with how a Circle Y Flex2 rides, though, so it's one of the things I'm researching right now. :) It'll never happen, I can't afford that, and I just as much like how a solid but light rawlide tree rides and can't afford that either... but it's fun to pretend like I could have whatever I wanted.

I just don't think I've actually ever seen a saddle without D-rings. How strange! Never heard of Diamond D, but while it's hardly precision info the only ones I saw on the 'net were associated with Kathy's Show Eq. (!!!!) and then a custom guy. I rather doubt it's Kathy's... it's dark oil, and doesn't seem to be glittering like a disco ball. :P

I can definitely appreciate wanting some security on a round horse. :) We've been lucky that way, all ours are medium-to-high withers. When I say lucky, I mean "lucky"... it's a ***** trying to get saddles to clear the Big Guy's stegosaur plate.

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Stegasaddles - Coming soon from McCall...

I really appreciate your knowledge here, it's a big help.

[serennig]

Haha, I wish they would! That would solve one of the greatest saddlefitting mysteries of the world. (I'm sure of it.) But of course, they'd charge a dinosaur's egg for it.

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

Supposedly my Crates is a flex-tree. Doesn't move as much as my Collegiate Senior Eventer.

My trainer has a number of older school horse saddles without D-rings (60s/70s era saddles). The old-timey way to do things was just to run the breast collar ties through the cinch rings--and I've done it a lot with his saddles. You have to do them up snugger than you would with a D-ring--and he wants them fairly snug. No back cinch, though.

Not a big fan of Circle Y, but then again, once I sat in a Crates, I fell in love. I grew up riding a reining saddle--Saddle King of Texas--and those are the saddles I feel best in.

[serennig]

I am jealous of even the name Crates. I hear the name and then I see them whisked swiftly into secured trailers at the reining events, and I was eyeing one up at a cowhorse clinic this weekend -- it was brand new and still creaked, and I'm on a strict "no-riding" diet(*) until my digital extensor tendon heals, so I couldn't try it out. I wanted to, though, just to see if they're all they're cracked up to be. I take it you like it?

Now that you mention the older saddles, I'm remembering having to run a breast collar through a cinch ring on an old old saddle at a Morgan breeding farm. That was a long time ago though and maybe it was just because the D-ring was broken. Or maybe not.

(*) - which we all know means "no riding when anybody is watching" but I'm at least being careful enough to make it: "no riding anything but the dead-broke 26 year old retired show-horse".

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

I love the Crates. What I'd really like to have is the Ladies Reiner, but what I have instead is the Classic Reiner. It's a solid mid-range saddle. Just took a couple of years to get it to stop squeaking.

[skiesfirepaved.livejournal.com]

Oooh wow! Exciting. :D Zorro looks good. ;)

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

He does, doesn't he? It's not a saddle one will easily fall out of either. He'd have to work at it...

[evil-c.livejournal.com]

He certainly does look good! So you are turning into a western guy now then? We've lost you in the English world?

That horn may help at times to stay in the saddle but I get the feeling it won't be long before we get a post about how falling forward onto the horn hurts if you're a man ;-)

I'm so excited for you! Can't wait to see what you two get up to now!

[baddynono.livejournal.com]

Someone posted you a horse? wow

[glenatron.livejournal.com]

Only thing the postal service is good for these days.

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

Just a warning about neoprene--not every horse takes well to them. I personally have gone back to the plain black or gray felt pads I used while growing up. They also tend to be cheaper than neoprene or gel pads. Advantage of wool felt pads is that they wick sweat better than the neoprene. One of my barn mates discarded a neoprene because it made her horse sweat a lot, and I had an Impact Gel pad which put more pressure than I liked on my horse's back (when you pull the saddle off and you see the imprint of the pad, that's not good, especially for a performance horse like a reiner). A half inch to inch thick wool felt pad works really well, and is less likely to slip than any other pad.

I'll have to post a picture of my girl in Western tack on my page, so you can see fit and pad and how the breast collar sits. It's not that much higher than you have it there, but it does need to be about an inch higher.